Why Employees Call Everything “Discrimination” — & What to Do

[Melanie Naranjo] (0:00 - 7:25)
Hello, hello. Happy Monday, everyone. Welcome.

I'm not gonna lie, this is our first time experimenting, hosting one of these webinars on Monday. We will be interested to see the vibes on a Monday webinar, but listen all, you know what's going on in the U.S. right now. I don't want to do this webinar tomorrow or Wednesday, okay?

Now let's see how the elections go and maybe we do an impromptu webinar on Wednesday if people need it. I don't know. Write us, write in if you want an impromptu webinar when that happens, but we're not focusing on that right now, okay?

That's a little too much drama. Let's think about that tomorrow. With that said, welcome everyone.

My name is Melanie Naranjo. I head up the people team here at Athena. We are a compliance training company.

We do everything from harassment prevention training and cyber security all the way to hotline and workplace investigation platforms, and we are very, very happy to be chatting with you all today because if we've learned nothing else in the journey of building our product, it's that people leaders like you need other people leaders. We need community. We need resources.

We need support, both because sometimes it's just important to vent, okay, and you can't really vent to your employees, and also because there truly is just so much information out there and it's so important for us to help each other and knowledge share and all of that. With that said, today's webinar, thank you for everyone tuning in. We're going to be talking about a very spicy topic, okay?

Why your employees keep calling everything discrimination and what to do about it, and I'm very, very happy to be joined by Chantelle Egan at Medina McKelvey, who is, for anyone who's maybe newer to the webinars, we've partnered with Chantelle before. She's an amazing legal expert and resource. Several of you have actually already partnered with Chantelle and leveraged her business after these webinars, so clearly it is working.

Before I jump in further, Chantelle, can you give a better intro for yourself? Tell the audience who you are and what you're excited about for today's session. Well, first I want to do a quick intro for Melanie because she said lead the people team, but her new title is chief people officer, so congrats.

Hey, everybody. I'm Chantelle Egan. I am a California-based employment attorney.

I've been practicing for more years than I'd like to count, but in the last decade or so, I've been really focusing on advice and counsel, the type of issues we're focusing on today, as well as investigations, and I'm really happy to be having this conversation with you. This is going to be such a good one, especially because Chantelle leans into the spice, so we're going to hear some good stories. I'm excited, okay?

I feel like that's what you need for a Monday, a little bit of tea to wake you up. For anyone who is brand new, and thank you all in the comments. You all are being so sweet.

Thank you. For anyone who's new, these are interactive sessions because we really want to hear from you. We want to learn from you.

We want you all to engage in discussions with each other, walk away with new friends, so please leverage the comments as you can already see people are using it. I will be leveraging these throughout the webinar. I will ask questions, and I will call on a couple of people.

If you don't want to be called on, I don't want that to be a deterrent to your participation. Please just put an asterisk next to your response when you respond, and that will be my cue not to call on you, okay? So put an asterisk next to your response, and I won't call on you.

Otherwise, don't put one, and then I'll call on you, maybe. All right. With that said, let's kick it off.

We're going to be talking about real-life scenarios. That was that T I promised you via Chantelle. We'll talk about some underlying issues to understand why this is going on.

Some tips. We'll do our usual Athena Spotlight, and then we'll open it up to Q\&A at the end. Quick disclaimer.

I always put this for Chantelle's benefit. Please, please, please note that this is not legal advice. These are high-level tips, guidelines, overviews to consider, but as you all know, I am sure every situation is case-by-case.

There's so much nuanced context that is critical to the final outcome or how you go about approaching something, and so none of this should be used as, oh, well, Chantelle said this, so this is what I'm going to do. Chantelle doesn't know the context of the situation you're going into. If you want to do that, you should reach out to Chantelle and partner with her outside of the webinar.

Chantelle, did I miss anything? I want to protect you. That was perfect.

Thank you. It's spoken like you're almost a lawyer yourself. Lovely.

I've got a few reps of this in me now. All right. With that said, what do we do if we don't want to be called on?

Put an asterisk next to your response, Emma, and then I will not call on you. All right. With that said all, let's jump into it.

We're going to start with one of our classic pulse check questions in the comments. Remember, put an asterisk if you don't want to be called on. Otherwise, I might call on you.

One to five, how much do you agree with the following statement? Five being super agree, one I don't agree. Sometimes employees can be a little over zealous, shall we say, when it comes to what they think constitutes as discrimination, harassment, or retaliation.

Okay. Let's be real. It's mostly five and four.

I'm not seeing that much variation. Before I call on anyone, as these answers continue to come in, because I'm seeing a lot, Chantelle, I'm curious to know from your perspective, does this catch you by surprise? Are you surprised that HR professionals are like, yes, why are they obsessed with these terms?

No, this is right on target. I actually had someone outside of the state of California once call me and say, do they do special training in elementary school for employees in California so they know all these terms? No, this doesn't surprise me in the slightest.

Yep. Yep. Okay.

Yeah, me neither. I've definitely been seeing an uptick over the last few years. In particular, I want to say, I want to say since the pandemic, around 2020, I saw these really spike.

Has that been your experience as well, Chantelle? Or do you feel like this is in our heads? Do you feel like it's always been the same and we're maybe just noticing it more?

I wouldn't be surprised if you're just noticing it more. I've certainly seen this for quite some time, actually well before COVID, where I've been seeing, you know, the addition of new terms that are kind of adjacent such as gaslighting and things like that. And where I've really seen the uptick in people feeling like they're being bullied and they're experiencing a hostile work environment.

Fascinating. Okay, we are going to dig into all of that. Before I do, let's call from an audience member, because I always like to hear from the audience.

Let's do someone who didn't put an asterisk next to their name. And if you don't respond pretty quickly, I'll just assume tech issues or you forgot to put an asterisk and we'll move on to the next person. So no worries.

Let's do Audrey Meller. Audrey, A-U-D-R-E-Y, Meller, M-E-L-L-E-R. You put a five.

I'm curious to know, and Audrey, I promise I will not ask specific questions, but I'm curious to know, you gave a five, which meant, you know, I actually think this is a thing. I'm curious to know what goes through your mind as you think about this. Where do you think this is coming from?

What do you think is leading to employees sort of using these terms a little bit overzealously? Let me pause. Any thoughts there, Audrey?

[Chantelle Egan] (7:27 - 8:34)
Melanie, this is interesting, because as you were talking, my thought was, I hope she doesn't call on me. But I do want to say congratulations on your new role. Much deserved.

And then I will answer your question, though, since you did call on me. And I actually, I didn't really, I was really, I'm really happy to hear what you're saying, Chantelle, because it was feeling to me that I started to see more and more of this during the pandemic. And it has just continued to escalate as we bring people together again.

And I've heard the word numerous times, and I feel like I'm being discriminated against. It's like, wait a minute, that's not, let's talk about that a little bit more. What do you mean by that?

Right? And it can be a whole host of things. It can be a whole host of things.

But the harassment and retaliation, well, not so much retaliation, but the harassment as well. Because your manager asked you to return to the office like everybody else, that doesn't constitute harassment. I'm sorry.

Yeah.

[Melanie Naranjo] (8:35 - 10:10)
Audrey, super, in fact, I'm going to say, can you give a little plus one in the comments, if anybody sort of identifies with what Audrey is saying? Audrey, I want to make sure you get some love and you don't feel like you're on your own here. Yep.

Okay. You're seeing a lot of support here. Audrey, I have one quick follow-up question before I let you go.

And don't worry, I'm going to protect you here with what I'm about to say first, okay? Which is, let's put out, let's all just put out into the world and acknowledge that what we are not saying over the course of this webinar is that we want employees to stop speaking up, or that we think it is a problem that employees are well-versed in these legal terms. That's not what anybody here is saying.

It is a good thing that employees are becoming well-versed or more aware of these terms, more aware of their rights. It is a good thing for employees to speak up if they think that something is wrong. I think for a long time and too many employees have not spoken up because they didn't feel safe, because they didn't feel that they had the right, because they didn't understand the tools and the terms.

And so it is, let's all just agree, it is a good thing for employees to understand these terms and to be able to speak up. Where we run into issues is employees incorrectly using terms and applying them in situations where it actually isn't one-to-one. And so I want to put that out there.

Audrey, my question to you, acknowledging, right, that no one is trying to stifle employees from speaking up. My question to you is, when you get a situation where someone is applying a legal term where it feels, you know, very obviously this is not the term that you are using, how does that feel for you? What is the impact to you as a people leader?

[Chantelle Egan] (10:12 - 10:59)
Well, it kind of makes me a little sad that I think they're hearing things out there. They're hearing, you know, they're seeing things via social media and they're not fully understanding the true definition. So I feel sad that they actually feel that way.

I feel sad we haven't done a better job helping them to understand what the differences are and how it applies in the workplace. So many times I'll just go to our handbook and say, these are the true definitions, you know, and I'll ask them, we'll have a conversation first, but these are the true definitions. Does this really apply to your situation?

And I'll tell you, nine times out of 10, after we've talked about their particular situation and I've shown them what's in the handbook, they walk away saying, oh, I didn't realize that. Yeah.

[Melanie Naranjo] (10:59 - 14:52)
Audrey, thank you so much. Can everybody just give Audrey some love, especially she was so game and she didn't even want to be called on. Audrey, thank you so much for participating.

I don't know if you can see all the heart emojis coming up. Super lovely. And I really, really appreciate the empathetic approach you're taking here.

We're going to talk a little bit more about that as I get into it with Chantelle, because I think you're right, right? I think oftentimes employees are coming from a place of good intent and understanding that as part of our response is really, really critical. All right, Chantelle, I'm taking it over to you.

Before we get into problem solving mode, okay, I'm going to stop screen sharing for a second so people can see our lovely faces. Before I jump into that, you know me, I want some tea and I want some relatability for everyone in the comments. I'm curious to know, without sharing any confidential information, what are a couple of examples of the wildest discrimination, harassment, or retaliation claims you've ever received?

And for all of you listening in, feel free to share your stories in the comments as well while Chantelle shares, because Chantelle has shared some interesting ones already. Well, you know, there's something about being an employment lawyer that I'm always going to be entertaining at a cocktail party because my line of work involves people just like all HR professionals. There is really too many to count, but one of my personal favorites, and this is probably coming from the fact that I'm based in San Francisco, is so, you know, during the 2010s, pre-COVID, you know, startups are doing amazing.

It's, you know, you have all these fun places to hang out, and I got a call from an HR professional who's like, we just got a complaint of someone saying they're being harassed, and I don't know what to do next. And I said, well, what do you mean? Like, why does the person feel harassed?

Well, it turns out that the company had numerous kombuchas on tap, and they changed the flavors, and somebody said that they were feeling harassed because they no longer had, I can't remember the flavor, but it went from like strawberry to cherry, and they were just completely, like, this was harassment. And the HR professional was like, do I have to do an investigation if they feel harassed about kombucha? Like, is that harassment?

I've also had, you know, the people that get their schedule changed, but, you know, after they had said that they couldn't work, you know, they can't work nights, and then they get taken off the night schedule, and they feel harassed, and you're like, wait, wait, wait, you know, we were trying to do what you asked to do. So usually it's something where it's, like, so far from what an actual definition of harassment could be, but people are using those words, especially harassment. I always like your thing, Chantelle, where you always say, well, let's just have a moment for the human reaction, which is, like, really?

Really? Like, let's just be human for a second and acknowledge that, like, sometimes as HR professionals, I'm sure you as a lawyer, sometimes you hear this, and you're like, really? This is the thing I'm going to be working on today?

Yeah? Yeah. Most of the time, actually, I love that that's what I'm going to be working on today, because that part where you're like, let's just take a second, and can we just giggle for a minute?

Because I also feel like HR professionals very often don't have anybody else that they can talk to. So I'm like, were you able to keep a straight face when you got the complaint? And they're like, yeah, I was.

I'm like, well done. Well done. I love that.

I won't call on anyone, I promise, but in the comments, give us a little plus one if you've ever, like, had a thing, you're like, oh, I wish I had someone I could talk to right now.

[Chantelle Egan] (14:52 - 14:53)
Oh, my God.

[Melanie Naranjo] (14:53 - 59:30)
Well, I saw one of the comments talking about, you know, hearing about harassment because of, you know, management and hearing feedback, and you're like, all right, not everyone, you know, it's the workforce, not everyone's going to get a participation medal anymore. We are no longer, this is no longer AYSO Soccer, you know, the big leagues. Okay, it's really, honestly, it's very, I think it's a suit of you to call that out, because I do think it's worth acknowledging that we are just in a different market right now.

And that's probably part of this, right, is that 20, the market of 2021, very different market to 2024. And some employees, I'm sure are getting some whiplash, especially newer employees who are newer to the workforce in 2021. And they're expecting that this is the norm and always will be a thing.

And then suddenly, in 2024, we're taking some things away. And it's like, you know, just like this big shock. Are you seeing that at all?

Absolutely. Because, you know, a lot of people made life choices, because they thought that things weren't going to go back to the same. And then I think the thing that's worthwhile to mention is just the trajectory that we're dealing with, with folks, especially that this is their first or maybe second job, is that they may have also received their training, and, you know, finalizing of education in a remote environment.

So just there's so many layers and dynamics now in terms of people's expectations, that is really not something that we have encountered before in history. Well, so let's dig in there. Let's double click, or double down.

I'm curious to know, what are some of these other underlying issues that you think, from your experience and expertise, are really leading to this rise? Well, maybe not a rise, but that are leading to employees, unfortunately, making incorrect claims and incorrectly using these terms. So it sounds like there's an expectations issue.

What else? Well, I think expectations issues, but I think at the end of the day, it's really just about vocabulary. And what I mean by that is not to diminish it, but when someone says they're feeling discriminated against, harassed, at its core, what they are saying is, I don't like the way I'm being treated.

And, you know, we're going to talk later about just like the nuance, I'm sure we'll talk later about the nuance of the word. But that's really at its core. And I think what we're finding now is the things that are upsetting people and tipping the scales for them, that they don't like something, is we're seeing some new things.

And part of that is like changing expectations, having created a specific type of life or schedule for yourself based on whether it's a remote work environment, or also not having to have direct feedback with a manager. So, you know, you previously just got a red line, for example, of your work product, and now your manager is sitting down with you and having that same conversation face to face. And if that's not something you've experienced before, that can be something that can be uncomfortable.

So a lot of times when I'm seeing the misuse of the word, at the end of the day, what it just means is, I don't like this. And then it's our job, whether that's as a investigator or as an HR professional, or as a manager to be like, okay, what's actually going on here? I 100% agree with that.

Because I feel like what I have seen in my experience, and even just like hearing anecdotally from other people is, at the core of it, people feel wronged in some way, right? Now, whether that wrongness stems from an actual legal issue, or it stems from, you didn't take the time to give me effective feedback, you gave me really wonky, vague feedback, right? And now I'm upset.

And to me, this is what that feels like. It tends to be it comes from a real place, right? So I super agree with that.

It tends to be these underlying issues, like, you know, lack of clarity, lack of transparency from the company. So now they're filling in the gaps, and they're making these assumptions. I'm also, I saw somebody put this in the comments.

And I agree. And I'm curious to get your take, Chantelle. I can't tell if I'm just like, you know, I'm a cog in the wheel.

I'm one of the sheep. And maybe I shouldn't be. I think a large part of this does stem back to social media, and people getting information that's sort of like, and I really want to say this in an empathetic way, because I really do have empathy, because I've talked to some people, and I'm like, wow, you genuinely believe this, where there's this sense of pressure.

It's almost like, okay, a less spicy sort of analogy would be employees who are being given really bad advice about how to negotiate. So it's like, make it really contentious, ask for double whatever they offer you no matter what, you're sort of setting them up for failure, because you're giving them this impossible task. And people are feeling undervalued and underpaid, when they have no data to base this on.

But they're just hearing from everyone that no matter what you do, you should always negotiate, never take the first offer, so on and so forth. And again, a lot of that comes from a good place. But the advice is actually a little bit off.

And I have this impression that there's a lot of information coming in around, don't let your company wrong you, you better stand up for yourself. And you really should for the record. But I think sometimes the information shared is maybe shared in not the most productive way.

Is this like a generational thing that I'm blowing up in my head? Do you disagree? Like, what's your take?

So actually, that is the foundation of how my firm got founded is based on our mission statement is and I don't mean this as a plug, but it's like a framework. So to say like, it's not generational. Our framework is about peacemaking.

And what we discovered over years of being litigators and counselors in the advice space is there's this like, fight between employer versus employee. And it's like, it doesn't have to be that way. And so I don't think it's a new phenomenon.

But the social media thing is a really kind of interesting twist on that. Because I've certainly seen, you know, lots of advice where it's very, very general. And it's like, you know, and the negotiation is a perfect example, you know, never take that first offer, never, you know, express any form of excitement that you've gotten the role.

Or, you know, when you get a promotion, these are the five things that you need to do. That content is based without a specific person in mind, it is based for a very general population. And I got really great advice on my very first real job.

You know, once I was out of college, by my, my manager, and then my now my friend, when I got promoted, she said to me, she goes, I need you to stop acting like this new role that I had chosen. And I need you to start being Chantelle, who is this job. And at the end of the day, that would be my advice for anybody who's trying to dissect it, whether it's through a book or social media or whatever, feel like they're getting guidance about how to act in the workplace.

You gotta ask yourself, how does that apply to me? And how can I still show up as myself and my authentic self with this information that I now have? Super helpful.

And I don't know if you can see this, Chantelle, but you're getting lots of love coming in with the emojis. Let's I want to make sure that we talk some solutions and tips. And what do we do with this information?

So I'm going to put a question in the comments, but I won't call anyone. So don't worry. I would just want to get a pulse check.

Scale of one to five. How much do you agree with the following statement? Remember, five is agree.

One is disagree. Navigating legal claims as meaningful stress to my day-to-day life. Navigating legal claims as meaningful stress to my day-to-day life.

Am I allowed to say one as a lawyer? I'm like, this is how I make a living. Let's please, all the legal claims.

All right, Chantelle, I don't think either you or I are surprised that people are feeling a lot of stress here. And I would like to make sure that we help the people who are feeling some stress. So I want to jump right into it, you know, understanding some of the underlying issues at play here.

What can HR professionals do to help reduce the risk and be better prepared for situations like this, where an employee is, you know, hopefully coming from a good place, a place of good intent, but incorrectly using these legal terms. Yeah. So the key thing here, there is just understanding and controlling the narrative in real time.

So if somebody, for example, whether they submit a written complaint or they shoot you a Slack message and say, I'm feeling harassed. If you don't circle back, tie a bow around it, find out what's actually going on there. Then two years down the road, the person becomes a disgruntled former employee, files a lawsuit, and they can say whatever they want to say about what that harassment or discrimination was, because there's no context, real-time context about what it means.

They can also say you didn't look into the complaint. And we want to make sure that while it feels, it can feel kind of overwhelming that you're trying to control for some future problems. I really want you to think about it in a different way.

What you're doing is you're dealing with it in real time and making sure you fully understand what the problem is and you're defining what the problem is. That's going to help you figure out what your next step is and also how to create a solution. Because even if it isn't, you know, harassment or discrimination, whether legally or as it's defined in your policy, this person is unhappy, dissatisfied, and it may be something that, you know, coaching or something like that is warranted, even if it doesn't rise to the level of a policy violation or, you know, obviously a legal concern.

I'm curious to know, Chantelle, especially for anyone who's listening in and is saying like, all right, this is like an existing problem and I want to know how to handle them when they come up. And we're going to talk through that in a second, I promise. But I also want this to stop happening.

Like I want to have fewer incorrect claims being made. Do you have any tips in particular for how to help start to your point, like reshaping that narrative, helping point employees in the right direction, helping combat, you know, some of the misinformation that might be coming in or anything else? So there's a couple of ways.

One is through training. You know, if you're educating your workforce about what these things really are and really emphasizing what the expectations are in the workplace, then you're probably going to get complaints that are really focused on actual real issues of concern when it comes to harassment or discrimination, or they're issues of concern that may not rise to the level of a policy violation, but man, you want to get in front of it.

So part of it is about education. The other piece is how you handle them on an individual basis. Employees talk.

I mean, I certainly, you know, chit chat with, you know, my co-workers. If people feel like they were helped and heard, at the end of the day, that feedback is going to trickle down to their peers. And what, you know, obviously this is an unscientific assessment, but what we will see then is people then coming with very clear problems because they will see HR as a pathway to solving their problems.

Because frankly, that's really where I would say the legal risk comes in as either, you know, things that are, you know, ambiguous. And so you're tempted to just be like, oh, this seems like a nothing thing. So you just don't really do anything.

And then that leads to your second biggest problem, which is doing nothing or not taking action. Because when we think about legal risk, and I hope no one on this webinar has been deposed, but it's all of a sudden that email from three years ago that you don't even remember is the thing that's all of a sudden you have an attorney, you know, picking apart every last one of your words. So if we start from a place of really emphasizing to folks, like, what is the actual problem?

And then through the rumor mill, it becomes understood that HR is really there to help. I think it ultimately will reduce the more inflammatory complaints to the extent that they aren't actually, they don't rise to the level that of the words that the employees are feeling. I really love this idea of embracing the fact that employees talk rather than being scared of it or trying to stop employees.

Because I think that's a thing that unfortunately, many employers have done historically, right, which is, you know, don't talk to each other that you think about the history of pay transparency or lack thereof, right, like never share what salary you're making. I actually think that leads to more problems, more distrust, employees will fill in the gaps, anything you don't tell them, they will replace with their own assumptions. And so it's better to just fill those gaps for them.

And then you give them something to talk about. I also really like this emphasis on training in particular, because I mean, obviously, I'm a little bit biased, I work for a compliance training company. But I've seen a lot of trainings that are just ineffective, where the training is literally like, oh, hey, Bob, touch so and so's butt, and like, shouldn't have done that.

Oh, bring in HR. And what they don't do is talk about these actual, like, gray, nuanced situations. Like, for example, what do you do if somebody accidentally misgender someone?

Like, how do you respond? And like, how do you how do you help? And educating people about ways to speak up and helping people sort of diffuse situations versus like, the immediate response being like, this person should be fired, they've made it, you know, this horrible offense, when really, maybe it's a one time, genuine, honest misunderstanding, and it's an opportunity for education, giving employees those resources for how to speak up to your manager, a hotline, whatever the case may be, so that it doesn't feel like the only resource is to sit on it until it bubbles. And then, you know, raise this really sort of, I don't want to say egregious, but quite heavy claim.

Chantelle, it looked like you wanted to say something. Oh, I got something to say. So when people are coming and saying, I feel harassed or discriminated, they are mad, they are hurt.

You don't use those words, like flippantly. Like, those are those are indicators that the person is not happy, right. But I love the connection that you made, because I really see it playing out in the workplace.

If we deal with an issue when it is small, it is so much easier to tackle. But if we wait until it bubbles and becomes this huge issue, then all of a sudden, we're solving a problem, instead of making a course adjustment. And so that's also the part where I think it's really important from a manager's perspective, to not be afraid when they realize, oh, I got an employee that is, something's not going right.

I'm not connecting with them. You know, whatever it may be, when it's still small, whether that's they go help and get guidance from HR to help navigate the situation and get it back on course, or they stop and reflect and have a conversation with the employee directly, like, I feel like we're not quite connecting. If we deal with it when they're small, then they don't become big problems.

100% agree. It makes me think a lot about, well, I don't know if I'm behind the times now, but this is still top of mind for me, because it had such an impact for me at the time in my role. When cancel culture became this very big thing, there really became just like a lack of nuance, a lack of empathy, a lack of space for people to make mistakes.

And I love what you're saying in terms of getting things when they're small and proactively training people on empathy, training people on being solution-oriented, training people on having these really tough discussions, as opposed to, again, immediately escalating or snowballing. Now, for the record, obviously, if somebody does something egregious, that should be immediately escalated. Yes, but I think you all know what I'm talking about when I say maybe you have a tough feedback session, and how do you have that conversation directly versus escalating and trying to, I don't know, launch a campaign to have someone fired, for example.

And you were talking earlier about giving performance management feedback. And where I really see the person saying, I'm being harassed or discriminated against is often because it blindsides the person, because the manager has not given them the adequate lead-up to be like, it shouldn't be a surprise when you get a bad performance review. It should be that you've been coached all along, and while it may be a really tough conversation, it's not the first conversation.

But where I'm seeing the situation where the person in the review stands up, pushes back the chair, and says to the manager, you must be doing this, insert, because of my protected characteristics, is because they're like, this has got to be about something that I can't control. This has to be because you have some kind of bias, because I did not expect to walk into this door with this kind of review. I will say, I've heard from many lawyers, like, the worst thing you can do is surprise someone.

Like, just don't surprise people. Just don't do it. Okay, so let's jump into some very specific, hopefully, like, rapid-fire responses that I imagine people sitting in are curious about.

So, very logistic stuff. But okay, let's say you get the kombucha complaint, all right? You have discriminated against me because I like strawberry, and now you got rid of it, okay?

And I know it's because you don't like me for whatever reason. I'm curious, you know, do you need, because you had mentioned, like, look into it, do you need to launch a full-out investigation for every claim? How do you respond to the kombucha situation?

So, anytime you hear one of these charged words, you definitely have to look into it to understand what the person meant. So, if you go and do, in essence, we call this, like, an intake or a clarification interview. So, if you go and you talk to the person, and you find out they're just really upset.

They hate strawberry, and they really loved cherry, and they, but it turns out that the real thing is that they've been working late at night. And this is, like, they feel underappreciated. And you've sussed all that out, and then you realize, okay, this has nothing to do with a protected characteristic.

This has nothing to do with bullying. By the person's own admission, this is just about flavors, and just about feeling underappreciated. So, that, you can say, this does not need to be investigated, because based on their clarifying admissions, we're not looking at a policy violation here.

But then, of course, memorialize that, because there's nothing worse than somebody rewriting history down the road. Oh, so important. We talked about the importance of documentation.

We will link you all to that recording if anybody's got questions about what effective documentation looks like, how to do all that stuff. Document everything. Otherwise, it didn't happen.

So important. Okay. Now, follow-up question, which I think will probably be relevant to a lot of people on the call here.

What do you do if that same employee continues making legally heavy accusations? At a certain, like, is there a certain point where there's, like, a tipping point? Do you just go through this cycle every time?

Like, how do you navigate this? Don't you wish that you could just say, I'm sorry, you've reached your quota. You're not allowed to complain anymore.

That's enough for this year. Like, it's like a vacation bank. Wouldn't that be great?

But alas, that is not the scenario. So, a couple of things. One, each time that they bring this up, you do want to circle up with them and just clarify.

All right, this is what's going on here. Memorialize it. And the way I look at it is that you're putting things in a box, because that way, too, instead of the person saying, like, you know, I've, I've, you know, made 10 complaints.

You'd be like, I've looked in all to 10, all 10, and there's nothing there. Or conversely, what we often see with people that bring up complaints is they start revisiting things that you've already investigated. So, if you're very carefully and, you know, meticulously putting a box around, as we call it in the legal world, and all, you know, your HR professionals that do investigations, like, clearly defining scope, you can say, actually, we already resolved that issue two investigations ago.

And so this, for your 10 claims, we're only going to look at two, because those are the only ones that are new. And continuing to hold that person accountable. And then the other thing, which is obviously, you know, not part of the legal rubric, but if somebody is complaining a lot, it's really worth it to have a conversation with them to say, hey, this is the 10th time that you've come to me in six months.

Like, I know, we've looked into these things, and like, what's going on? Like, how, how can we turn things around for you so that you are satisfied and fulfilled here? And that, once again, will help you figure out what your right path is.

And it could be a myriad of things. It could be, this isn't the right group for this person. It could be, they got elevated into a role they're not ready for, and there needs to be some adjustment there.

It could be that this person is under severe performance management, and they just really haven't accepted what's going on with them. So they're trying to distract, but it'll help you kind of figure out what your next step is. And Chantelle, I'm going to put a thing out there and correct me if I'm wrong.

But I believe, I'm assuming that your wording there was like, very intentional in asking, what can we do to help me understand how I can make you happy here? And it wasn't, hey, are you sure this is the right place for you? Because the minute, right, the minute you do that, so I want to make sure that nobody's misinterpreting Chantelle's advice here.

The minute that you say, are you sure this is the right place for you? Now, you have opened yourself up to someone saying like, oh, are you trying to push me out the door? Is this retaliation because I spoke up?

Is that, did I get you right, Chantelle? Oh, you, you put, you picked up what I put down. For sure.

And really have it be about them. And it's like, and also how can I help? Because that's also the other thing, like, think about it now.

I know we're not talking about like, accommodations here, but it's a very similar analogy. The expectation is that you're having a conversation and you're going back and forth, you know, the ball going back and forth over the net. And so I really like it when you are giving the employee some agency.

You know, what needs, what would need to change for you? And because sometimes you can start having a really direct conversation because they may say, well, what needs to change is my, you know, manager. My manager needs to be fired.

And you're like, okay, well, that's not your decision to make. Let's think about things we can control. And it could help kind of once again, get them back on track or help them realize on their own that there really isn't anything.

And this is not the right fit for them, but they're coming to that conclusion. You're not spoon feeding them to them. So critical.

Yeah. Don't, don't lead the witness in any way. Thank you, Chantelle.

Okay. I'm going to see if we can squeeze in two more questions here before we move it along to quick spotlight and Q\&A. I'm curious to know, assuming you investigate, right.

And you find no wrongdoing. I find that this tends to be a really challenging part for HR professionals, which is the follow-up, which is like, thanks so much for making this claim. And also like, that's not what you think it is.

How do you say this in a way that, that lands in a way that doesn't further divisiveness, that doesn't aggravate the situation further. So now they're going straight to the EEOC, which for the record of employees, welcome to do right. But it may cause unnecessary headache, even if at the end of the day, it ends up not being something that anyone can pursue.

Like how, how do you communicate this in a way that doesn't further aggravate the situation? So it actually starts before that conversation. This is where the intake interview is so important.

That person needs to walk out of that interview, that conversation, feeling like they were completely heard and understood. And it could also then follow up with any kind of follow-up meeting that you have to have with the person to clarify some of the issues that you've learned from other sources. That could be a way also that you're previewing for the employee that they don't actually know the full picture.

And when you go through it, I think it's really important to lean into that process. Like you came forward, we conduct an investigation. We, you know, sometimes you can give numbers, sometimes you can't, it all depends.

Like, but if you talked to lots of people, it's probably something to emphasize. Like we looked at all the documents people gave us. We talked to, you know, tons of people and we couldn't substantiate your claims.

And then it becomes the issue of, is there any of the lessons learned that we can still pull from it? Because a lot of times what we find out is, and I frankly, I see this happening more often than not, is that the claim, let's say that, oh, you're doing this to me because I'm older, for example, that's not substantiated. But what we do learn is that perhaps the manager is, you know, short with the employees, or, you know, we end up learning something else that is brewing under.

So you're like, but actually through our investigation, we learned a couple other things. So we are going to be actually taking some steps as a result of you coming forward. And then you have to make the judgment call about whether or not it's appropriate to share what some of those steps are.

Like we're actually going to be providing some coaching for the team. And we've decided to do an offsite because we've realized that there may be some issues where the team isn't connecting, whatever it may be. If they can walk away feeling like a little bit of a win, you're in the best place you can be.

But sometimes you can't offer that. Sometimes it just has to be like, I'm sorry, that's the case. But that is where it is so important that that first interview that they felt heard.

Here's what I loved so much about what you just shared is I want to acknowledge the very human reaction that some of us might have having to deal with this day after day, right? Sometimes you can just get like a little bit beat down, you can start to get a little bit cynical. You can really struggle to bring the empathy to the table.

And also, it is so critical that you combat that fatigue and bring your empathy hat to the table and genuinely partner with them and genuinely lead with curiosity. Because the reality is, oftentimes there is a kernel of something happening, right? This didn't just come from nowhere.

And I want to put out there, I'm so sorry, I'm blanking on your name, but the first person we called on, right? And this is actually a very stressful situation for employees. I don't think that any employee is getting joy out of opening a case and allegation.

Now their manager knows, now multiple people are involved. They're having to get on calls. They're worried about their privacy.

I don't think this is an enjoyable experience for anyone. And so just to acknowledge that this is probably really hard for them. There is probably something genuine that is driving this.

And to try and acknowledge that as an opportunity for data, for learning, for a path forward. Again, in some cases, like the kombucha situation, you maybe truly have no option, right? But in most cases, I would argue, there truly is something to be learned.

And so how do you partner with them on that path forward? All right, last question for you, Chantelle, and we're going to move it along. I'm curious to know, I think that optics can be a very scary thing for HR professionals and employers in general.

And what other employees are seeing, because maybe this one person is being really loud and sharing with the whole team that they have lodged this complaint and they're very unhappy, right? Or maybe you close the case, but now they've talked to everybody and their manager knows about it. And now they have to go back into reporting to their manager and their manager's like, well, crud, how do we go back to normal?

I'm curious to know, what are some top high-level tips that you have for HR professionals in terms of how they navigate the aftermath? So it's so tempting to just be like, and now that we're done, nobody talked about it ever again, and it's over and finito. That's not realistic.

And it's also could be actually violating some federal laws about people's ability to talk about their workplace. The advice that I typically give is like leaning into the reality of like, everybody knows this is going on. So you need to do a temperature check as HR and the manager leading the situation about how is the team reacting to it?

Because there's really kind of two ways. There's one where, you know, it's stirring up the pot and everybody's upset now. Or there's also the part where they're like, well, so-and-so just piped down.

And it's almost like that person gets ostracized that has made the complaint. So you have to figure out which social dynamic you're dealing with. And then you have to think about, okay, what are the things that I need to lean into?

I mean, if I had a dollar every time they go, I just want to go back to the way it was. And I go, well, the way it was before, there were some problems because somebody came forward. So the before times wasn't that hunky either.

You just weren't aware, but you were blissfully ignorant. So now it's like, all right, what are we going to do to lead? And it really is the type of thing where I think that it's not about ignoring the issue, but it's like, what is the primary goal of the group and really pushing that agenda forward?

And if we get ourselves back to business as usual with the lessons learned from the investigation, then over time, things should simmer down. I couldn't have said it better myself. Truly.

I mean, so go ahead. Well, I was just going to say that, like, I think it's also the part that is really interesting, which you didn't ask me about, but I'm seeing a lot more of these where I'm seeing a lot more complaints where somebody is like, well, I didn't experience this, but I'm coming on behalf of the team because they are the source. Like everybody's going to them and giving them like, and I, in those, I'm like, oh, I like to ask, like, how does that make you feel that people are coming to you?

Because sometimes we're like, oh my gosh, I feel so burdened. And I just, I need something to change because I need this to stop. Other people, it's actually energizing to them.

Like, oh, well, you know, I like it that everybody's coming to me and that they trust me. That once again, will help you figure out how to navigate how the team works together. So, and in particular with that person, you need to make sure that person's kind of brought along with the manager to help lead the group to this next stage where they can, you know, grow and recover from this complaint.

It's all about communication and empathy, people. It really comes back to the basics, honestly. People just want to be heard at the end of the day.

They want to feel heard. They want to feel respected. And sometimes if things don't go their way, they can still have a very positive reaction to it, as long as they feel like their situation was about truly evaluated.

Yeah, I do think that piece is important, making sure that they feel heard, seen, and you looked into the situation. All, you all have some interesting questions that you threw in. So, we're going to get to those.

But first, as I promised, we'll do a very quick Athena spotlight. We got some positive feedback to the last one where I just showed a live, like, here's what the platform looks like and how to use it. So, we're going to do a very quick two to three minute, here's some stuff to look at.

Given that we talked a little bit about the importance of training, I figured I would show you a little bit about training at Athena. And then we'll move along to Q\&A. So, with that said, I'll wish me luck as I try and screen share this on the demo page.

Listen, if I make a fool of myself, let's give me points for trying, okay? All, if we have any Athena customers on the call, this will look very familiar to you. This is our training page, the dashboard, as you all know from anyone who was here before.

Oh, yes, look, I love the Athena love and the emojis. You know, we have various tools, case management tools, content library, phishing, all that stuff. We're going to talk, we're going to look at training very quickly just to show you what that would look like here.

And also how you might want to customize your trainings based on your company's needs. So, I'll show you a very quick example of what it would look like to add training in your company. Let me make this page a little bit bigger.

So, if you had our full course catalog, this would show you a series of courses to choose from. We've got manager essentials, anti-money laundering, harassment prevention. Let's say, for example, to Chantelle's point, you were investigating and you realized, you know what, we actually do have a history of managers not giving really effective feedback.

That's the underlying issue here. What you could do is say, well, I'm not going to sign a company-wide hour-long training. I really just want to send the one specific thing because we all know our stakeholders are not going to buy into another hour-long training, right?

We might get buy-in for a seven-minute training, right? Or, for example, if you do find that there was some instance of feedback that was maybe just a little bit, it was not to the level of termination, but it looked like there were beginnings of problematic behavior, right? You could say, I'm going to pull this specific module.

You could customize your harassment prevention training to emphasize other aspects over others to make sure that you are meeting your team's needs. Let me show you an example of what this would look like. So, say, for example, you want to do management essentials, which is essentially managing within the law.

This is how to coach your managers on how to have conversations if their employees bring to them a reasonable accommodation request, if they let them know that they're about to go on leave for parental leave, all that stuff, right? You don't want them putting their foot in their mouth. You could just do the default Athena training, or you could customize your training, which basically allows you to pick and choose from the various modules that we have created that tie into this topic so that you can create your own custom management training covering only the topics that are important to you and your team versus, you know, having to use a default module.

So, let's say, for example, we wanted to do one that was around effective feedback. You could just click that. Let's say that's the only module you want to do, just a 16-minute training.

You can continue. You can check it out. You can actually preview the course.

Let me see if I, oops, I went all the way back. Give me one second. Let's say we go to management essentials.

You click here. You customize. You can actually preview the course.

If we see here, just for anybody who's interested, you could take a look at what that looks like. We've got various videos on it. Anyhoo, let's say you pick the one, let's see, effective feedback, so preview this content, start training.

This is the one you want to do. Something that's interesting to show is that we actually allow employees to put on closed captioning. We also allow them to control the speed.

So, if they want to digest it more quickly, they can. A little Easter egg, if anybody finds them, you get actually me, because I actually am a part of the trainings and partnered with our team to write some of the trainings to make sure that they're relevant and they really cover the most important needs for managers and employees. And so, let's say you pick this one.

So, you're going to do this. You're going to assign it. And then very easily, you just go through, hey, what's the name?

We're going to call this effective feedback. We're going to click on the date. You can select that it's not going to be yearly.

It's maybe just a one-time training based on this thing that you found. You can select who do you want to assign it to. You can pick just one.

You can pick one population. So, you can add team members. And you can actually filter.

So, let's say you want it to go to all U.S. and Canadian managers. Sorry, managers. Then it would pull this list.

So, let's say this is who we're going to assign it to. So, let's see. So, well, let's do yep.

So, let's click through these. And then what you could do, let's just for time purposes, I'll add team members here. And then you go through the rest of the process.

Let's say we went through that review and create campaign. This lets you review everything. You schedule the campaign.

And then what's really cool is it takes you to the end page where it's very easy to track who's completed it, who's within deadline, who's incomplete. If you wanted to send an auto reminder to all managers so that you don't have to chase people down, then that would give each manager an email that summarizes everyone, every other direct reports who hasn't completed the training yet. Yeah.

Very good stuff. I really like that you can mix and match. Because I have found I don't like personally being limited by the vendor's training default.

I like being able to choose my own modules. If anyone's interested, let us know. We always offer discounts to webinar attendees.

I'm going to stop screen share now. And I'm going to go ahead and oh, actually, I'm going to screen share for anyone who is looking for HRCI or SHRM credit. You can pull those codes here.

And then we will flip it over into Q\&A. Ace, why don't you go up and pull the poll questions because I know you have a few questions you want to collect while people do their SHRM and HRCI certifications. I'll be quiet for five seconds and then we'll do Q\&A.

While you all are doing your poll and keeping track of your TLE credit, I think something else to think about when you're using those trainings is a great way of leveraging especially short modules is let's say you determine that there was no age bias, but this manager is micromanaging and it's really aggravating the employee and actually maybe even other employees that you interviewed. When they're a short module, you can have the manager and then perhaps even the manager's manager both watch the module and then in essence like an assign as part of their one-on-ones, a dissection of the micromanaging training and how it applies. That's one great evidence that you're taking these things seriously.

And two, it's a very constructive way to bring it back instead of it just being about training, but it's training and then application. And when it's short and it's a bite size, it's much easier to swallow if you will. Oh, I love that.

Really good suggestion. Okay, Chantelle, we got some interesting new questions actually. So I'm going to jump into them based on the upvotes that they got.

So one question says, if an employee has mentioned that they are being bullied in an engagement survey, but it's anonymous, how should HR proceed? They don't have the person's name. Whoa, this one's so hard because how many of you out there have been like, I am 99% sure it's employee X.

I think it's employee X. If it's anonymous and you really don't know, I think that there's really not a next step. You can, depending on the size of your company, it could be something that you put on manager's radar that this is something that's happening in your team.

But it's something that more likely than not, unless it's pretty apparent about who made it, even though it's anonymous, there really isn't a next step. You could, as a buttress to say, we've gotten some feedback during the engagement survey, perhaps to, if it's a small enough group, we've gotten some that made us think that perhaps somebody may have some concerns about the workplace that we'd like to discuss. We encourage you, these are all our hotlines.

I like to actually incorporate that as part of the engagement survey. It's like, if there was any questions that made you think that perhaps you want to reach out to HR, here's all the ways you can do it. That way you're safe on the back end, if you feel like you can't really take any next steps because you don't know who made the complaint.

Ooh, I really like that. Okay. I'm going to speed through because I think we have time for just one more.

This is always a spicy one. What is a good set of steps or how do you go about responding when an employee raises a complaint following a performance issue? They've been placed on a PIP and then they raise a complaint.

What changes about this process, if anything? That's such a good question because we see this all the time. More often than not, what you need to do is just quickly press pause on the PIP and have somebody come in with fresh eyes, talk to the individual, have them air their concerns.

More often than not, it's like, I think I'm being discriminated against because of insert protected characteristics because I don't deserve this poor performance review. Then you need to just press pause on the PIP, run it to ground whether or not there's merit to that. Then if there's no merit to that, then you go ahead and proceed with the PIP.

As part of that, assuming that there's no merit to it and the PIP should proceed, I do like as a question, when you're letting the person know that you have to move forward, HR asking, part of a PIP is the expectation that you're going to make immediate and sustained improvement. In addition to your manager coaching or through this, in light of your concerns, I know we've unsubstantiated them, but is there anything else that we can do to help support you in this time to help ensure your success? Because that is, once again, leaning into that you want them to succeed.

One other note about the anonymous comment in the engagement survey that I want to fine tune a little bit. If the anonymous comment in the engagement survey gives you enough details to investigate, so for example, manager X has done these 10 things and I find them to be discriminatory, that's going to be enough, even though you don't have the identity of the person for you to then launch an investigation. It really all depends on what's been alleged.

Super helpful clarification. Apologies all for the lighting. It's daylight savings time.

I forgot to prepare for the setting sun. I'm on the East Coast. All, thank you so much for tuning in.

I know we are at time. I don't know about you all, but I got so much value out of this call. Chantelle, thank you as always for being such a rock star.

My pleasure. Any final words for the audience before we end the call today? You know, I just thank you all for participating.

I love doing these webinars. I feel like all the emojis just, you know, fill my heart. And I just want to encourage you, you know, when you are dealing with investigations, you know, just stop, think to yourself, what is it that we're actually investigating here?

Like, what is the scope? And if the scope doesn't include a policy violation, then probably we're just using overly charged words. But then you want to make sure that you're memorializing it and then communicating with the person that there's no need for next steps.

But you got this. You got this. All right, thanks all.

Happy Monday and good luck the rest of this week. I truly wish everybody luck. All right, bye.